Panel 2 Question and Answer

Chairman: Thank you. I thank the entire panel for their testimony. Mr. Renzi.

Rep. Renzi: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, so much. First I want to thank you for doing this, for bringing it forward. It’s been 20 some odd years since the House has even addressed this issue but under your leadership, it moved forward. I’m grateful. I really am.

Chairman Sidney, in your statement I picked up what I thought was an indication that the closure of the Relocation Office meant closure for you of also the issue. What if we had relocation changed/closed and then changed to rehabilitation? And what if we closed Flagstaff but we kept alive the architecture, particularly the funding stream, and we looked at rehabilitation up in Tuba City, maybe smaller. I’m not sure if there’s forty people working for relocation or 75 people. I don’t know what the overhead is. But what if we had, what if we took relocation and made it rehabilitation. And we put it in your backyard so that both the Hopis and the Navajos could share in developing this plan, in developing this study on where to move ahead. I don’t mind studies if it means laying out the implementation of the development for the future. I don’t have a need for a study that’s gonna look back at the sins both of this Congress and where we were in the past, the decisions that were made that I think were wrong.

But the Bennett Freeze as was indicated by all of you is an area you can’t repair your electrical, your electricity in the houses when it goes out. You have to go ask to repair. You can do nothing to your homes. You can do nothing to the jails. If a car drives into the jail and knocks down the wall, you can’t fix it unless you go to the federal government and get permission, or go through one of the agencies. That’s the Bennett Freeze; it freezes any construction, any development. In the last 30 years it’s caused the conditions to be deplorable, the worst of the worst, and so as we move forward with a plan to lift that area and develop that area, what if relocation became rehabilitation? Would there be enough closure then?

Chairman Sidney: Thank you, Mr. Congressman. Let me first say that I don’t want to leave here not saying that Hopis were also relocated. They live now in the villages; we made accommodations for them. They have also their own community and they also are short the infrastructure to continue their livelihood.

Rep. Renzi: Yeah. That’s right.

Chairman Sidney: In support of relocation they have the Hopi and Navajo staff that become experts in working with us, and that would be expertise that’s much needed.

Rep. Renzi: Yeah.

Chairman Sidney: And also saying that, and that’s why we say that allow them to finish. I don’t support a study that would reinvent the wheel so to speak. We’ve talked about the sufferings, we’ve talked about… We need to deal with today and put this behind us, go forward. But entire Hopi Navajo reservation if you put it together completely needs rehabilitation because someone like yourself knows what you’re talking of because you been there. You’ve been on our roads. You’re helping us build the infrastructure and we need to focus on those to help ourselves to go forward. And my concern with the BIA is that not having funding enough funding to finish the job adequately, because we’re the only tribe to have a BIA Indian police, and right now our officers are subject to being moved other locations because our budget is insufficient.

Rep. Renzi: Right.

Chairman Sidney: We’re the only tribe in Arizona that’s non-gaming so we need the help to help ourselves, and this, the intent for this bill to go forward, yes, we would consider to have future discussions with you and others.

Rep. Renzi: OK. Mr. Shirley, rehabilitation verse relocation.

President Shirley: Of course, that is uh very much needed, monies for rehabilitation. I think the Hopi tribe and the Navajo tribe are very diligently working on bringing to a closure the Bennett Freeze. Prayerfully working with my brother here, the honorable chairman of the Hopi Nation, and their counselor, we’ll bring it to a closure in short order, and having done so we’ll need monies to rehabilitate the land. We need monies for infrastructure, schools, for economic development, for housing for the people, you name it, and I agree with Chairman Sydney that I don’t believe the BIA will be able to help us there.

Regarding the study that I’ve mentioned, I don’t believe that there has ever been a study done, a comprehensive study as to the effects of the relocation, what has it wrought on a people whether it’s the Navajo Nation or members of the Hopi Nation. What has the relocation wrought on a people? I don’t recollect that having been shared, a comprehensive study. I’d like to see it done. I think there are Navajo people out there that are just really devastated by the relocation, and we don’t know the effects of it. The children when their parents relocated at the time, immediately most are homeless, jobless, many of them are wrestling (?) around with alcoholism, drugs. That has not been looked at, and if the ONHIR were to come to a closure in short order, which is September 2008, we don’t know what’s gonna happen to these people, my people. And that’s why I’d sure like to see Congress with a heart. And I’m looking to you for heart. If you could work with us to do this study, and then based on actual data that is to be found there, and then use that to bring it to a closure humanely, that’s all we’re asking for.

Rep. Renzi: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman: Mr. Kildee.

Rep. Kildee: Ah thank you, Mr. Chairman, Chairman Sidney and President Shirley, both of you seem to have concerns about the transfer of the location (sic) program to the Department of Interior. Is that due primarily to worry about lessening of the level of resources or other reasons, and perhaps different reasons between the two. Chairman Sydney, what reasons would you have for being reluctant to have that program moved?

Chairman Sidney: Congressman Kildee, Hopi having to wait a very long time for beginning to have control over our lands, we’re very concerned anything to delay our opportunity to rightfully use our lands, saying that relocation although it was a painful process, I believe that I tried to do what it could but if that expertise could be use and if the Bureau of Indian after all there’s still the U.S. government, and hopefully to move forward to resolve and allow this thing to happen. And certainly I need to discuss this further with the support of the committee sitting the Hopi and Navajo together to discuss this, and allow us to take control. This is also very important to support our sovereignty as native people. In the early stages of this long, hard issue, there was really not any discussions among the two tribes. And in allowing us also to sit down with both the BIA and Relocation to say, have us hear more of what their plans to put a final chapter this hard, long relocation issue.

Rep. Kildee: You know, I think you touched on a very important element. Not only is there a sovereign relationship between the Hopi Nation and the United States government, but there’s a relationship between the sovereign Hopi Nation and the sovereign Navajo Nation. I think that sometimes we forget that, you look (?) at one another as sovereigns.

Chairman Sidney: Mr. Congressman, I’ll state what I really think here. All due respect to the United States Congress and this committee and our congressmen, I believe Congress since 1958 have added to the longevity and harder issues that we only know as Navajo and Hopi people, that we like to become more responsible to our people and allow us to move forward and have the funds to begin to close this chapter.

Rep. Kildee: I really agree because both you are sovereign and can deal with each other as sovereigns, too.

Chairman Sidney: Thank you, sir.

Rep. Kildee: President Shirley?

President Shirley: Thank you, the honorable Congressman Kildee. I think the BIA as I understand, and I’ve been president going on 3 years and 6 months now, and I know about the bureau also from times past. I believe it’s never really been focused. To me, ONHIR, we’re talking about focus, going through one office to try to address a very specific challenge to our people, to the Hopi Nation, to the Hopi, uh, Navajo Nation. If you were to transfer it under the Bureau of Indian Affairs I’m afraid it’s gonna get lost in the shuffle there. And the Bureau has never had the resources to fully address the needs of not only the Navajo Nation, the Hopi Nation but Native America. The Navajo Nation alone has an unmet need of 435 million dollars, and we’ve been going to the BIA for decades to try to get at that unmet need. Never have. And I’m just afraid that’s what’s gonna happen. But if we can continue to have ONHIR, we will continue to have focus in trying to address this problem, you know, the problem of the relocatees. That’s the way I see it, Mr. Kildee. Thank you.

Rep. Kildee: I want to thank both of you for your very clear answers. Thank you very much.

Chairman: Mr. Faleomavaega.

Rep. Faleomavaega: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There seems to be a clear consensus from Mr. Shirley and Mr. Sidney about the possibility of maybe having a congressionally funded, or someway or somehow do a study of the issue as been suggested by my good friend from Arizona, Mr. Renzi. What is your best uh your best judgment in terms of how long the study could adequately uh, uh address these issues, and at the same time we don’t want to have a study to go on for hundreds of years. I mean do you think a one-year study would be sufficient to give us a clearer picture of the problems that we’re faced with since this program had been implemented now for 30 years?

Chairman Sidney: I believe with the years of this issue that one year is sufficient time to know what remains to be done, and what has not been done. Not only a part of the relocation of the families is the restructuring, providing infrastructure as stated by our Congressman Renzi, and helping the infrastructure to help sustain developments. I want to make sure I say, members of the committee, before I leave, the Hopi tribe is cooperating with the Navajo Nation and the people residing still on Hopi lands, today the very few, providing them law enforcement, providing them EMS services, health, and having them attend our schools. I don’t want anyone to think there’s absolutely two different worlds. We have to live together. I refer to Hopi as the hole in that donut, and that’s the way it’s going to be forever. And we need to put a final closure to this chapter, and that’s why I’m focusing and that we have other priorities we need to really work on, so again to repeat myself, I want to be here part of working with you to see that the law is fully implemented, and that we go on with this behind.

Rep. Faleomavaega: President Shirley?

President Shirley: Thank you, uh Congressman, I couldn’t agree with my uh brother, the uh Chairman uh Sidney more. Uh we do need to bring it to a closure, uh the Navajo Nation position at this juncture is that uh a study be had. I think a year is sufficient to have that study, and uh then in an effort (?) the study has been done through to use that data to put in place a mitigation and closure plan. And uh I think the sooner we do the study the sooner we’ll start moving towards uh closure.

Rep. Faleomavaega: Mr. Maxx

Mr. Maxx: From my recollection I became a council delegate representing Tuba City and Coalmine Canyon, the two chapters that are you know affected by both Bennett Freeze and also the relocation. You know, those, the Bennett Freeze and relocation has been going on for over 40 years, and I’ve never heard of any study so a study would really set the tone on timeline and even the costs. So a study is really needed to address the current issues, the ripple effect from the activities of this land dispute, and also this devastated people, we’re asking to get help, to get back on our feet, and to continue our lives. So thank you.

Rep. Faleomavaega: I just want to say for the record I certainly will support our chairman and certainly Mr. Renzi if there’s any real effort so that we can accelerate or any way possible that we can do this and I will hope that we will be able to do this and not delay the process any longer. Um, and I sincerely hope that and I’ll leave this to the discretion and certainly to the outstanding leadership of our chairman, hopefully we can work this out. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank the gentlemen for their testimonies.

Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Renzi. (?) Mr. Renzi do you have another round.

Rep. Renzi: Mr. Pombo, if I could just get one more minute. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I um as you know, are am working on a draft piece of legislation that would counter the Senate bill. It would counter directly the need that it would include a study. I had hoped that um the study would look at the effects of the Bennett Freeze, at the relocation, at the mitigation issue, at the closure, at the future claims and who will deal with those future claims. I hoped that the study would look at the new development and implementation of the new process, look forward also. It would be that kind of a whole study. I’m gonna have the draft legislation available in a few weeks for you all to look at, and give me your input, and I will come to you, and ask, um your thoughts on this study. I also think that relocation and rehabilitation are very close brothers and sisters, and that Congress needs to reserve a conduit, the base funding that exists in the Relocation Office, and simply transform it. Close it so there’s closure. Move it so it’s closer to the people. But there’s no way we’re gonna be able to get this done if we continue to try and rely on one congressman, or two congressmen, or this committee to get enough money out of the Interior Appropriations Department to take care of that issue. It’s too big unless it has its own liner (?). And that’s not to disparage anybody in BIA because you’re the hardest working BIA guy we’ve had, Mr. Ragsdale. You come to my office and listen to me yell at you six, seven times. [Ragsdale is laughing] But the resources aren’t there, the money won’t be there, the funding won’t be there unless we can somehow carve out, and I believe, in the base, why try to go through the whole legislative bureaucracy to develop a whole base, a whole new line of funding when we can simply take the existing, take the existing architecture and transform it to the future? And that’s what I want to work with you all on, and all of this discussion today, I’m grateful for, especially to our chairman, who’s brought it forward, and it’s his leadership that has allowed this to be here today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman: Any further questions of this panel? No. I want to thank you, and obviously this is an issue that we’ve had on the radar screen for a while with the insistence of Mr. Renzi, and the others in the Arizona delegation, and this is obviously something that we believe we need to come to some kind of settlement on in order to move forward. Um I believe that in looking at it some of the ideas and listening today, and looking at some of the ideas Mr. Renzi’s come up with that there is a solution we can work toward that does protect sovereignty as Mr. Kildee talks about but at the same time begins to uh begins to find a final solution to this issue and I think that’s what we all want. So thank you very much for being here for making the effort to come back and I do appreciate your testimony. If there are further questions the members of the committee have, those will be submitted to you in writing, and if you could answer those in writing so that they can be included in the hearing record. Again, thank you for being here. If there’s no further business before the committee, I again thank the members of the committee and our witnesses, and the committee stands adjourned.